Possible Saving Grace

topic posted Tue, September 1, 2009 - 9:50 PM by 
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A thought occurred to me as a possible way the series might be saved:

Consider these facts (as they exist within RDM's BG history):

The Twelve Colonies developed over a considerable length of time. Within that time-frame, FTL drives were developed for both commercial and military use. By the time of the first Cylon War (and probably well before it) humanity had to have launched many exploratory missions--because the Galactica had charts clear out to the Prolmar sector and beyond. From reviewing dialogue from the first episode and later, it's fairly clear that although the Colonials didn't leave the Colonies much, they certainly weren't limited to it.

If all of that is true, then it is certainly possible that there were years, possibly decades worth of exploratory teams traveling outward from the Colonial system: commercial outfits, espionage units exploring the Cylon borders, political dissidents, etc.

If that is the case, it's unlikely that they would be of the same cowardly bend as Adama and his "back to nature" group. They might well have a starfaring culture of their own.

This might be a way to pull RDM's fat out of a well-deserved fire!
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  • Re: Possible Saving Grace

    Wed, September 2, 2009 - 2:10 AM
    I'm not sure how. In fact, I think he really needs to explain why they didn't run into any deep-space exploration teams on their way out of the colonies. With as many civilian ships in the fleet alone, let alone the ones with Pegasus, and who knows how many were destroyed; it seems much more likely that they'd have at least a few ships looking to settle a 13th 14th and 15th colony, or find a better place for the ones that had a hard time of it.
    • Re: Possible Saving Grace

      Wed, September 2, 2009 - 7:36 AM
      What about the possibility of reveisiting New Caprica? I know the Cylons had plan to destroy the colony there. But since most of the population evacuated, I assume nuking New Caprica would've been pointless.
    • Re: Possible Saving Grace

      Wed, September 2, 2009 - 9:18 AM
      "In fact, I think he really needs to explain why they didn't run into any deep-space exploration teams on their way out of the colonies."

      Because space is really, REALLY big.

      Although it wasn't (to my recollection) ever established if they went in a more-or-less straight line, or jigged around, but space is REALLY big.

      The Colonies could have been launching major big-ass fleets once a year and the Galactica fleet would probably have never seen a one.
      • Re: Possible Saving Grace

        Wed, September 2, 2009 - 10:52 AM
        I understand space is big, but keep in mind that Orions belt was clearly visible in most view-ports for a full season until they found earth. It could be a mix-up (and probably was), but if intentional, then they only got the smallest nudge of the galaxy. Plus they were scouting for the same sorts of things an exploratory venture would: water, atmosphere, etc.

        As for their path, yeah, that was carefully left out. And though I don't know what was going on during "33", but certainly after they discovered the grotesque superiority of the cylon ships, they should have started meandering their course a bit to avoid the "next planet, that way" habit which would surely lead to an increase in cylon encounters.
        • Re: Possible Saving Grace

          Wed, September 2, 2009 - 4:15 PM
          > Orions belt was clearly visible in most view-ports for a full season

          Major scientific implausibility because space is three dimensional! The belt is only recognizable from a certain angle-- and the start move, so a constellation would not remain constant for 150,000 years.

          Whether the fleet took a straight line or meandered, running into another human colony/space craft et cetera, was going to be unlikely (and they did just that twice: the initial rendezvous whereby the fleet formed, and then again with Pegasus-- and of course, all the abandoned colonies like Kobol, the algae planet, and the destroyed Earth-- quite unlike the original series where they ran into other humans practically every other episode.
          • Re: Possible Saving Grace

            Wed, September 2, 2009 - 5:25 PM
            "Major scientific implausibility because space is three dimensional!"

            I haven't noticed it yet (re-watching from the beginning), but it's GOT to just be a dumbass mistake on set.

            Either that or the whole Galactica storyline takes place in some sort of Punyverse that is in approximately our location, but very, very small. FTL is more like holding your breath and ducking underwater. Or just hopping on a sidewalk.
            • Re: Possible Saving Grace

              Wed, September 2, 2009 - 8:45 PM
              Well, see that's where I'm going with this. We have no idea how far they were jumping, or where. Yes, space is 3d, but the belt might be visible from a dozen stars in this area, and a dozen more on the other side of us.
              • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                Thu, September 3, 2009 - 12:05 PM
                "We have no idea how far they were jumping, or where"

                We are not told why they were choosing the jump coordinates they chose. We cannot say what they were looking for specifically, except in such episodes where they were specifically hunting (such as for water, food, or Tylium).

                So, this is my thinking when I think "well, sure, there MIGHT have been research expeditions sent out, deep space explorations, but it's pretty unlikely that the Fleet would ever encounter them."

                Although it might make for a nice side-story, some deep-space research vessel coming back to Caprica AFTER the Cylons have abandoned it.
              • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                Thu, September 3, 2009 - 12:14 PM
                "but the belt might be visible from a dozen stars in this area, and a dozen more on the other side of us."

                I'm still chalking up Orion's Belt being visible as a stupid goof***.

                I squinted at the screen last night during one of the episodes and it appears in roughly the same configuration we see it, so if it's NOT a goof, then the Galactica is located in an approximate line with two known endpoints*. Earth is in that line as well, and close to the Galactica (or vice versa, if you prefer)**.

                -=-=-=-=-
                * the line: the line is such that only objects (planets, spaceships, or sleds filled with toys) in that line can see the constellation as we see it. Once you leave that line area, you're never going to see Orion the way it was visible in the Necking Lounge
                endpoint 1: between Earth and the constellation lies a point beyond which the constellation no longer appears the way we see it (because the constellation's stars are not all the same distance from earth).
                endpoint 2: this is where the light from the stars comprising the constellation no longer is visible to the naked eye (which means it would be impossible to see it, although that endpoint is probably MUCH closer to Earth because the brightness of the stars, based on my half-assed observation, was approximately close to the brightness we observe on Earth).

                ** There is no universal frame of reference.

                *** The Punyverse theory is, of course, still insufficiently challenged.
                • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                  Tue, September 8, 2009 - 7:40 PM
                  Personally, I always viewed the Orion as a little bit of a gag. Kind of like the Dharma logo on the shark in Lost, a little thing the FX guys threw in as a joke to see if anyone noticed, or like an easter egg hidden in software that's mainly just a calling card from the development team and nothing more.

                  In otherwords, don't take it too seriously.
        • Re: Possible Saving Grace

          Wed, September 2, 2009 - 5:23 PM
          "I understand space is big, but keep in mind that Orions belt was clearly visible in most view-ports for a full season until they found earth. It could be a mix-up (and probably was), but if intentional, then they only got the smallest nudge of the galaxy. Plus they were scouting for the same sorts of things an exploratory venture would: water, atmosphere, etc. "

          Orion's belt aside (I'm chalking that up as a mistake), space is REALLY big.

          We don't have any sort of FL drive, but we already know of hundreds of extrasolar planets, several of which are possibly NOT gas giants. I think, even if they WERE looking for the same basic things*, the chances of them running into a completely different expedition from another time in the recent past are just astoundingly small.

          -=-=-=-=-
          *I'm not sure this is a reasonable description, though. The Fleet was looking to get away. Basically, they were panicked and jumping, and either jumping further and further away, or doing a lot of jumping around in close-by systems.

          In fact, a much BETTER metric would be how many jumps it took Starbuck to get back to Caprica, because we can guess that this was approximately as straight a line as a curved universe can afford.

          If that number was much less than, say, a jump every 33 minutes for three days, then they HAD to have been backtracking, randomizing locations, and basically just jumping around anywhere they could think of.
          • Re: Possible Saving Grace

            Wed, September 2, 2009 - 8:51 PM
            Well, that's what I meant about superior technology. Kara got BACK to Caprica in one jump. We have no idea how many jumps it took to get back FROM Caprica, as she didn't have the Cylon Raider on the round trip.
            • Re: Possible Saving Grace

              Thu, September 3, 2009 - 12:17 PM
              "Well, that's what I meant about superior technology. Kara got BACK to Caprica in one jump. We have no idea how many jumps it took to get back FROM Caprica, as she didn't have the Cylon Raider on the round trip."

              We're just about to hit that episode, so I'll try to pay attention if they pony up numbers. My recollection isn't good enough.
              • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                Thu, September 3, 2009 - 12:33 PM
                I think at that point the writing had gotten sloppy enough that they just didn't care that a Raptor, which is supposed to have "short range jump" capability (according to the website) could re-trace the entire linear trip (including 33) with essentially no supplies, and before their onboard air ran out.
                • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                  Thu, September 3, 2009 - 2:22 PM
                  The writing had gotten sloppy? You think?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Possible Saving Grace

                    Thu, September 3, 2009 - 4:51 PM
                    After the end of Season 3, they did seem to lose their way -- in particular in what to do with Starbuck?

                    I think they were counting on the Bionic Woman to last more the one season?
              • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                Fri, September 4, 2009 - 11:25 AM
                "Kara got BACK to Caprica in one jump."

                I confirmed it last night watching. It appeared to only be one jump. She also appeared to have been particularly fatigued by it, kinda shaking her head and all.

                I think I'm leaning in the following directions of thinking, as I rewatch:

                1. I'm assuming the Fleet is zigzagging around somewhat in an attempt to throw off pursuit -- more specifically that it's probably not just picking a random direction and heading out on that line. (unless we're just making it complete fantasy and saying God made it all happen this way)

                2. I'm assuming that jump DISTANCE is determined by ship and that the Fleet as a group won't make a jump longer than the slowest ship.

                3. The Cylons do some really dumb shit.
    • Re: Possible Saving Grace

      Fri, September 4, 2009 - 12:43 AM
      "I'm not sure how. In fact, I think he really needs to explain why they didn't run into any deep-space exploration teams on their way out of the colonies. With as many civilian ships in the fleet alone, let alone the ones with Pegasus, and who knows how many were destroyed..."

      Ah, but you see, that's my point. Those civilians that Admiral Caine mowed down and robbed never explained where they had come from, nor where they were going. We just assumed they came from the Colonies, but they never actually said that, did they? Even if they did, there's no way to tell if that was the truth.

      To my way of thinking, there was plenty of dissension with the way the Colonies were run. Added to which, it is human nature to explore as far as you can, and not all of those expeditions are paid attention to or shouted about. Everybody knows Columbus sailed west in 1492, but few know that the Danes reached Hudson Bay in 1475; or that Zheung He, a Chinese explorer, was exploring India, Africa, and some say the west coast of the Americas as early as the 1420's. And that doesn't even take into account the explorations of Hui Shen, Prince Henry Sinclair, and the legends of Prince Abubakari.

      It just seems ridiculous that a starfaring culture with reliable FTL capability would stick to one solar system for decades on end. Like RDM's denouement for the series, it just doesn't wash.
      • Re: Possible Saving Grace

        Fri, September 4, 2009 - 10:32 AM
        Possibly the only thing the original series got right on the plausibility factor was that there would be lots of undocumented human colonies on just about any planet that can support human life. Even in in the original story, when they get to the casino planet, there are a lot of humans there from the colonies who simply had not heard the news what had happened back home.

        Still:

        a.) The chances of bumping into these undocumented colonies while fleeing is very tiny simply because space is big; and:

        b.) If the Cylons got there first, the population would probably have been "farmed."
      • Re: Possible Saving Grace

        Fri, September 4, 2009 - 11:26 AM
        "It just seems ridiculous that a starfaring culture with reliable FTL capability would stick to one solar system for decades on end. "

        Unless...

        ...it's a Punyverse, like the Flash Gordon universe, or the punyverse in Sluggy Freelance.
      • Re: Possible Saving Grace

        Sun, September 6, 2009 - 11:47 AM
        > few know that the Danes reached Hudson Bay in 1475;

        Most people probably know of Danish colonies in the New World pre-Columbus, it's just that those colonies did not contribute greatly to world trade in a manner that allowed them to expand beyond a string of outposts.

        > Zheung He, a Chinese explorer, was exploring [...] the west coast of the Americas as early as the 1420's

        That claim has been investigated and dismissed by scholars due a complete lack of evidence. He did explore Africa and much of Asia though:

        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1421...#Criticism
        • Re: Possible Saving Grace

          Sun, September 6, 2009 - 1:32 PM
          Maybe not the specific chinease explorer, but there's got to be an explanation of Aztec jade...

          And let's not forget the FIRST people to discover this land.... ice explorers from siberia....
          • Re: Possible Saving Grace

            Mon, September 7, 2009 - 8:38 AM
            There is no evidence of Chinese explorers reaching the Americas during their ages of exploration. There is no evidence in either the Americas or in China. I assure you that Chinese scholars take great pride in their civilization's accomplishments and they would loudly proclaim any such evidence if it existed. Chinese scholars were just as involved as western scholars in debunking Menzies' ridiculous claims in "1421."
            • Re: Possible Saving Grace

              Mon, September 7, 2009 - 1:31 PM
              Not to be a big dumb westerner here, But aren't we talking about the country that still won't allow archeological digs? They could have been debunking him for entirely different reasons, like the Oil and Coal republicans debunking Gore.

              No, what I'm talking about is the jade objects found by Spanish explores when they first encountered the Aztecs. Jadite may be more common than just China, but nephrite isn't and that was found amongst them too. Nephrite is ONLY found in China.
              • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                Mon, September 7, 2009 - 6:44 PM
                Keep in mind that the Chinese archives have very detailed accounts of the voyages to southeast Asia, India, Arabia, and Africa, but the only claims that the exploration fleet reached either the Americas or Europe come from Menzies. There are no European accounts of being visited either. While at least some of the nations visited that were visited in Asia drew up their own accounts of this massive Chinese fleet arriving in their harbors.

                Menzies simply didn't do proper research, claimed expertise in areas where he was not knowledgeable, and essential wrote a novel of the "secret history" genre and fraudulently marketed it as non-fiction.

                It's not just "the Chinese" who have a problem with Menzies' book, it's scholars in numerous disciplines of many different nationalities who have problems with his book. In other words, the Chinese discovery of America in 1421 hypothesis doesn't hold up to any scrutiny at all-- so my guess is that Menzies is also unqualified to discuss geology.
                • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                  Mon, September 7, 2009 - 7:12 PM
                  Ahh kinda like Columbus sailing to India several times....
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Possible Saving Grace

                    Mon, September 7, 2009 - 7:21 PM
                    Indeed, there are doubts that Marco Polo truly made it to China proper?

                    However, much information could be merely lost or misinterpreted in his after his death?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Possible Saving Grace

                    Tue, September 8, 2009 - 5:22 AM
                    The difference is that even if Columbus was mistaken about where he landed (by the end of his career, he believed he had sailed to Japan, not India-- he was still operating with the best informationa available to him) we at least have a huge amount of evidence that makes it clear where he landed: improved cartography, plants indiginous to the Americas that he introduced to the world economy, animals and germs indiginous to the Eurasian land mass that he introduced to the Americas, et cetera.

                    Menzies is just making stuff up and deliberately ignoring whole bodies of scholarship that doesn't fit with the story he wants to tell-- which makes him a fraud.

                    There's a huge difference between a deliberate fraud and someone who is honestly mistaken.
                    • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                      Tue, September 8, 2009 - 12:24 PM
                      No, sorry, it's not like Europe didn't have any contact with India. They had sorted out several asian languages by then. I can see losing your translator on the first voyage, or bringing the wrong one (say, chinese...). But he took several trips to this continent and not once did he bring anyone with the knowledge to back up his claims. That's just sloppy damn work. It's also why I celebrate Columbus day by looking for drugs, backstabbing a friend, then getting strangers sick.

                      But I'm waaay off topic here. Sorry.
                      • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                        Tue, September 8, 2009 - 5:32 PM
                        So the Chinese explorers got lost. Their ability to steer their vessel was compromised, and they drifted on the ocean currents until reaching the Mesoamerican Pacific coast. They bred with the natives and then created Cylon technology. The Chinese Cylons (known as CHI-Lons) rebelled against their masters and destroyed the entire civilization. This accounts for the lack of evidence.

                        I'm a genius.
                      • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                        Wed, September 9, 2009 - 7:35 AM
                        > No, sorry, it's not like Europe didn't have any contact with India.

                        Which has nothing to do with Menzies' argument-- or with any of Columbus' cartographical errors and subsequent corrections made by later explorers and scholars.
                        • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                          Wed, September 9, 2009 - 11:48 AM
                          But it does have a lot to do with whether or not they could speak the damn language.
                          • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                            Thu, September 10, 2009 - 6:57 AM
                            This really needs to be taken to a thread devoted to alternate- or pseudo-history since you're no longer referencing either real-world history or Battlestar Galactica.
                          • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                            Thu, September 10, 2009 - 7:02 AM
                            In addition, if you know much about India, you would be aware that there are numerous languages spoken, and much of the trade with Europe would have been conducted through Arabic speaking intermediaries-- and many Spaniards of the time would have had some facility with Arabic.
                            • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                              Thu, September 10, 2009 - 2:29 PM
                              There is also the thread that the BSG story is also very loosely based on the legend of the future Israelites wandering from Egypt to the land that they would eventually plunder to be their own. Took forty years while the average Egypt-Canaan caravan would take about a week.
                              Other than the Bible, there is no evidence that that story actually happened and as far as the Jews being held in slavery, all the evidence from Egypt contradicts any slavery in Egypt at that time of history.
                              Now, I'm not sure if I have the name of the people right, but I think they were the Minoans???? They lived on this high cliff-ed "C" shaped island in the middle of the Mediterranean. In fact they had a very cosmopolitan city around the deep harbour inside the "C". It was so well placed that peoples from all over the Med. used to stop over there and trade. The sloping walls of the inside and outside of their perfect world were incredibly fertile and they could grow anything. Life was perfect.
                              Then it blew up.
                              Nothing left, just a hole in the bottom of the Mediterranean sea.
                              • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                                Sun, September 13, 2009 - 4:51 PM
                                "the legend of the future Israelites ?"

                                Sorry, I never heard of it. I have heard of the story of the Israelites of ancient times though.

                                The historical evidence supporting that particular story as actual history is slight. The Israelites were genetically very closely related to the neighboring tribes of the Levant, and probably were Canaanites themselves.

                                The evidence certainly does not support a migration of the scale described, and scholars who do support the idea that the Exodus represents an actual historical migration, estimate anywhere from the 13th to 17th centuries BCE. So it is hard to make a conclusive argument one way or another.

                                Still this doesn't really relate to BSG except that a particular legend was used for allegorical purposes-- it certainly neither commends or condemns BSG as a piece of storytelling or as science fiction.
                                • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                                  Mon, September 14, 2009 - 12:18 AM
                                  Totally agree with you and further to that I believe that the Exodus probably happened over a very long time in dribs and drabs, or not at all as no Archaeology anywhere supports it to my knowledge.
                                  My suggestion is in that the "Future" Israelites meant that at the time of Ramses when this was supposed to have taken place, the Jewish people did not exist and as you say were more or less several nomadic tribes.
                                  Also there is the reference to the leader who never gets to enter the promised land and gets to see it from a mountain top beforre croaking, just like Roslyn.
                                • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                                  Thu, October 1, 2009 - 1:15 PM
                                  ***
                                  "the legend of the future Israelites ?"

                                  Sorry, I never heard of it. I have heard of the story of the Israelites of ancient times though.
                                  ***

                                  I think what was meant is they hadn't founded Israel yet, therefore they were only Jews and not yet Israelites.
                                  • Re: Possible Saving Grace

                                    Sat, October 3, 2009 - 5:13 AM
                                    They were called "Israelites" because they were of the twelve tribes of Israel; Each tribe traced its ancestry to one of the sons of Jacob, also known as Israel. Only later did they become known as "Jews" -- after the political ascendency of the tribe of Judah.

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