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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 1:20 PMIt actually kinda sucked that we already knew that was going to happen since they gave that away in the following week's preview...along with the Cylon war.
Come on Ronald, don't give too much away! -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 2:38 PMI don't know if she is truly dead -- it is telling that she is effected so by the earlier encounter with the Nebula???
Although it is interesting seeing how ruthless and amoral Tory Foster and perhaps the rest are turning turning out since the revelation of their true lineage... -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 5:54 PMI like that they hinted at Tory's jump into amorality when she was talking with the chief in the bar. She said something like new experiences, removed limitations, something like that. And I thought oh she's gonna get bad! -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 12:36 PMWas Tory really being amoral or was she making a calculated choice in a morally difficult situation?
A drugged up Cally has just bludgeoned Galen with a wrench and is threatening to space herself and Nicholas, an innocent child. Tory needs to save the child, and protect the current secrecy of the "Fantastic Four." Cally is not prepared to listen to Tory's insistence that the four are not evil, that none of them knew about their Cylon nature until a few weeks ago, and that Galen sincerely loves Cally.
If Tory lets Cally live then a.) Nicky is still in danger of being killed by his own mother, b.) The Four are still in danger of being found out and harmed, and c.) Cally will still be suicidal.
Tory made the choice of the lesser of two evils-- and its a similar ruthlessness for the greater good we've seen practiced by Roslin, and even both Adamas-- that is, the good guys. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 9:40 AMYou point out the relativeness of morality. The way I read it Tory's figuring out that the rules that "humans" play by don't apply to her anymore. She is doing whatever it takes to protect herself and by extension those like her. So from the viewpoint of the cylons she's being very moral from the view point of the humans she's being ammoral. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 10:24 AMActually, my point is that the humans have been playing by just that sort of morality all along. All the human characters we generally think of a s principled: Roslin, both Adamas, Agathon, et cetera, have made similar morally decisive choices at times.
In fact, I should point out that I wasn't talking in terms of moral relativism-- I was pointing out that Tory was in fact, by being unsentimental, was actually saving more lives by killing Cally, while placing more lives at risk had she saved Cally. So the point is not relativism but ambiguity-- these are different things.
A dificult moral choice is never between good and evil-- it's between evil and evil. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 10:42 AMhmmmm, a difficult choice...maybe. But I still say she's going to the dark side because she looked like she enjoyed it too much. To be honest though, I felt like cheering too. Cally bugged the holy crap out of me.
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 12:07 PMI didn't mean to imply that I figured out your point. I was making a point based on your observation, not that you were making that point, but this is actually not important to the discussion.
As I understand it, it would only be ambiguous if Tory and say the Galacticons were playing by the same rules and morals. I believe Tory isn't anymore. She wasn't making a choice between evil and evil. She was protecting herself and those like her.
Now to the point of that's what all the Galacticons have been doing all along, you're right. The reason we (I) haven't called into question their morality, like we've now done with Tory, is because we (I'm) on their side. They're doing what they need to do to protect their own. Tory crossed sides. She's become the other.
In the real world I could be accused of cylonism. But since it's TV...
As I've seen Tory develop, what I read in that moment of flushing Cally into space was not ambiguity, it was necessity and some joy.
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 11:32 AMFrozenstars, I think we can pretty safely assume she is DEAD.
As in DEAD DEAD. Stick a fork in her, it'll break off because she's a piece of iced human-steak floating in the Great Freezer Of The Godz. No Cylon Mystery Rescue for sweet little her, no coming back in two months saying "Hey I found Earth! Wanna come? There's hot dogs!"
Nope. She' goooone.
Unless they bring her back as "Head Callie" in Tyrol's mind.... But how many times can you pull that stunt without it becoming the show's version of the "swing around the sun to warp back in time" maneuver? -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 7:40 PMWell, se could be the fifth and their kid represents the very first pure cylon child.....
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 2:38 PMI somewhat cheered her death! She seemed annoying and had no real place in any episodes. It must suck because she survived with Galan outside in space. Now she was flushed down the toilet like an unwanted goldfish.
As for next week preview I thought it was strange that ellen appeared as six by Tigh. I always thought that a connection would be made between the characters.
By week the show gets stranger and I'm not a big fan of it! -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 4:24 PMThis show has become so strange and bad, with weaker and weaker writing with each passing season. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 5:04 PMwait... isn't this a fan tribe? -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 11:35 AMYou can be a fan and still critique.
For absolute unquestioning adoration you should start a BSG Zealots Tribe. ~:o)
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 5:52 PMYou know I watch it each week going, why am I watching this. Really I'm only watching for the reveals, but otherwise the stories are leaving me dry. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 6:18 PMI have to agree. I love this show, but haven't been all that impressed by the last two episodes. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt though. I know that TV series have to go through "down time" in their writing in order to get to where they need to go. One of my favourite TV shows had this whole arc, we call it "The Tritter Arc" and it is generally thoroughly hated. It made a point and took us somewhere that we needed to go...but it was annoying as hell to go though.
Another thing to think about is that the typical American TV series has 20+ episodes in a season. If you contrast that with, for example, the UK where a typical series has half that, the writing is generally much better and the stories progress at a different pace. The US show The Closer has adopted this philosophy and it seems to work well. I enjoy that show very much.
Either way, I will continue to watch BSG. I enjoy the show and will watch it every week till it is over. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 11:47 AM"Until it's over"
There's the rub, ennit? We know we're coming close to the end, so we're staying for the punchline, hoping it's not a 4-year-long Pink Gorilla joke.
As a fan from the beginning, I've a right to say again, "The Cylons Have A Plan, but the writers apparently don't". And here's an article that actually proves the point:
www.syfyportal.com/news424887.html
Talks about the "organic storytelling strategy" they use on the show.... AKA making it up as you go, and hoping for the best.
And although I prefer the M.J.Straszinski method, I do admit BSG is still the only reason I turn on the TV, so I do pray it doesn't end with a gigantic pink furry groaner.
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 7:42 PMLet's say it together...
Pre'tay nama!
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 7:07 PMSo, OK, now there are these two Cylon-Human babies. Hera's existence was such a huge deal in past seasons, but she now seems way less important now that Nik turns out to be half Cylon too...
Which brings me to another point: Where the frak is Hera? Athena and Helo are both on the Demitrius on Kara's mission... did they bring the kid along? Did they think we'd just forget about "the shape of things to come"?
I like how the show is full of suprises and twists, but things are starting to twist right out of fitting together coherently. Still, I have confidence the pieces will all fall together in the end.
Maybe the writers just like a challenge, seeing how far off the rails they can get and still bring it home. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 9:44 PMI agree! I enjoyed the whole "the shape of things to come" part of BSG. It seems that the writters are headed in a different direction than expected by the fans. We held on to so many ideas of the importance of the Final Five, Lauras visions and Athens whole part of the story.
But I guess we'll have to wait this one out again! -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 11:45 PMI'm actually enjoying everything about it!
It's been only two frakin' episodes and people already want to bury it? Ronald Moore and the rest of the writers are giving me something I wasn't expecting. I also like the fact of being teased with Star Trek references and other sci-fi shows - it's a fan boys morning glory!
It's the final season and basically, they're just tying up "loose ends". It's not like they need new viewers. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 7:41 AMI'm in it,, but the soap opera feel especially of late is also annoying to me..
But, there's always some really intense moment, something unexpected, or really coolly laid out,,
like in the last episode where Cavil's ship shows Cavil in there just having a conversation.. No putting his hands into junk, no orders given,, nothing but just a "well, I feel terrible about it, but they started it.." and there's a cut to no. six's ship where they are wondering why the resurrection ship didn't jump with them. Finally Cavil's ship apparently fires on all the other ships...
Now that's really cool.. I applaud the decision making on how they cut from action sequences to dramatic and back...
Dave
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 12:01 PMRaydeus: "Maybe the writers just like a challenge, seeing how far off the rails they can get and still bring it home."
I don't know, I think they're beginning to scrape the axle clean off the underside. There's a reason the rails exist.
And yeah I also wondered about the complete disregard for the Shape Of Things To Come story arc. I hadn't thought about Hera though, where do you find a babysitter in the dark depths of interstellar space?
Or maybe The Shape Of Things To Come already came, and it wasn't that big of a deal. "Oh, look, a baby. Oh, look, another baby. Now, who shot JR?" -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 7:49 PMYa know, just before I started watching season 4, I went back and watched everything from the miniseries to Razor, just to be fresh on it all.
One thing I did note was that Hera was always very carefully titled "the first hybrid". Yes they made a big deal of it, but only in that Hera was a milestone in their development. Since cylons could not mate with each other, now they can usurp the gift of creation from the humans and continue without them.
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 4:51 AMPersonally, I was disappointed by the first two episodes of the 4th season, but I liked "Ties that Bind". I wasn't expecting Cally to be spaced....when I saw Tory with her I thought she'd save her (up until now I thought that maybe the big difference between the 5 and the 7 is that the Final Five wanted to save humanity). Plus, I didn't think Cally would actually go through with throwing herself and her kid out the airlock; I figured she'd stop herself. I didn't think it would actually happen; I figured something would stop it. So, I was surprised that she actually died (or at least is dead for now, if she's the last Cylon--unlikely, but you never know...). I think that these first episodes are "setting up" episodes and that later on they will make sense or become important; things that might not seem like a big deal now could become bigger later on. For instance, I think it might be important that someone found out about some of the last 5 Cylons. I figured that it was bound to happen at some point. While I do think that Cally's death is going to be officially ruled a suicide, I think that at least someone (if not Chief, someone else) is going to do some digging and find out the truth. I think her death was a set-up for a future investigation; her death is not just going to get 'left alone'. Maybe when Chief finds out the truth, he will turn on the others. I'm wondering if what's going on with the other models (which I personally think is interesting) is going to happen with the last 5. And another example: Lee turning again on Roslin and growing fear over Roslin's classification of documents---this seems to be setting up a possible revolt, anarchy, assassination attempt, or SOMETHING. Plus, it also seems like this might create more tension between Lee and the admiral. Speaking of the admiral, I'm also thinking that his little scenes with Roslin are setting up the stage for something to happen between them.
As for other things being forgotten about...maybe they haven't been forgotten about per se, but are going to show up in future episodes. Or, maybe some things just aren't really important...maybe they were important in 'their own time', but in the 'current' time of the show, they aren't as significant. Or, too, maybe the writers will leave some details unknown or unexplored on purpose...either for creative reasons or else to leave open the possibility for future projects. Who knows?
I still think BSG is one of the best-written and overall most interesting shows I've ever watched so I'm trying to be optimistic about the rest of the season. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 11:22 AMLee would not have done something as stupid as pre-release a rough draft of a bill if he'd have gotten a little respect from Ros: 'junior representative' indeed.
The writers have never known what to do with Lee. Like the surprise family in black market, the badly done on-again, off-again relationship with Kara, the weight gain during the occupation, etc. This is just another in a long line of "let's see if Lee fits here" games.
As for Cally and Tory, well, Tory was following Ty's orders: keeping the skin job thing under wraps, and clearing up the problem with her impending affair with the chief. I imaging that they'll start getting closer now, until the chief finds out that Tory spaced his wife. Then the chief and Ty will bond over it and align against Tory. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 12:29 PMIf you think about it, Lee is perhaps the closest to the classic heroic archtype-- he's someone with whom we can identify, and has all those qualities we wish we had: a fast learner, a man of principles, a strong leader, and level-headed in an crisis-- the point is to show how dysfunctional this can be in a real crisis of this scale when one needs cowardice and and ability to make more cynical decisions.
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 7:11 PM<< Lee would not have done something as stupid as pre-release a rough draft of a bill if he'd have gotten a little respect from Ros: 'junior representative' indeed. >>
We only have Roslin's word that the bill was a rough draft. She's shown herself to be a smooth talker and not overly concerned about honesty in the past. Also, she's conveniently given herself until their next meeting to come up with a bill that's more acceptable to the quorum.
This is not to suggest that Lee wasn't used by the Vice President. Roslin's quick side glance tells us she knew exactly where Lee had gotten the file. With Lee's eyes a bit more open (to both Roslin and the VP), the politics should get interesting. Honest men have a very hard time in the political arena. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 8:13 PM<This is not to suggest that Lee wasn't used by the Vice President. >
Yep. I think Lee got sucker-punched by Zarek on this one, and rather transparently. Intrigue and sneakery not being Lee's career stock-in-trade thus far. Even at Baltar's trial, it was his unlawyerly need to speak his mind and out the truth as he saw it that carried the day in the end. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 12:10 AMIf he did get suckered, he had no idea. At the end of it all, the looked like he had Tweety finally in his teeth. Zarek got what he wanted, Lee got to jab Ros back for stepping on his support, and Ros actually wins because people will be focused on this instead of the Demetrius. I wouldn't be surprised if Ros made the whole thing up to cover for the Admiral. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 12:16 AMDo you remember the little trailer/commercials they had before the season started? They would say things like: so and so...good guy..or bad? I think hers was: Rosilyn, something or dictator? I can't remember what it was. I think those little tid bits were meant to give us an idea of this next season. Nothing is ever as clear and clean cut as it appears. Ambiguity is the hallmark of a great show because it is closer to reality. Nothing really fits into a box. I think we are going to see Ros kind of go a bit fascist on us and attempt to continually play the religious card and forsake her political obligations in order to remain in power. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 12:24 AMActually, no. I don't get the SF channel. After the NBC buyout, they started with all the bottom screen ads and such. One of those ads covered over the english translation on a first run movie. I got so pissed that I wrote them a nasty letter, cancelled my cable and started downloading the shows I want. Up side, no commercials. Down side, no teasers either.
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 4:33 AMActually, Lee got what he wanted as well: a.) he also wanted to stop inquiries into the Demetrius because he, as a former military officer, understood the importance of secrecy when necessary; b.) Lee has always been a supporter of constitutional government, transparency, and accountability-- we've seen that side of him since the first season: he's always been the last one to compromise on these issues; c.) He made himself into the opposition leader within the quorum and a strong candidate as the next President of the Colonies. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:39 AMI didn't think that Lee looked pleased at the end of it all. To me he looked as though he'd been out-maneuvered and knew it. There's enough fighter pilot left in him that he's not going to let that happen again. Honor is a strong part of his character, but he also has a desire to prove himself and to win. He not only is a good guy, he needs to be the good guy.
I think Roslin's teaser was "Savior or Dictator?" I agree that it's not necessarily an either/or choice. I've known someone who knew he was dying (he had AIDS) and wanted to get some things done before he died. He was the leader of a group I was involved with and without telling any of us that he was sick, he became a bit of a dictator as he became more frantic to accomplish things before his time ran out. In many ways I see Roslin in that light. She's running out of time, she's determined to "save" her people, and I don't think she will have moral qualms about how she tries to do this. I think to her the means are justified by the ends... and this should eventually put her at odds with both Adamas. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 1:41 PM" it's not necessarily an either/or choice"
-Jesus is "lord"
I agree, to save people you must take control of them. In a more direct path, look at the violent, intrusive measures that are taken by the medical field, even simple CPR. You have to take control of somone's body to bring it back to life.... to "save" them. Same thing intellectually/spiritually.
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 6:14 AMLee did get what he wanted, just at a greater cost than he expected. But everyone on the quorum is now on notice that once he learns the ropes of political office he will be a force to contend with.
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 7:02 AMWhen Cally was spaced, Babylon 5's Garibaldi's ran through my mind when description of spacing rushed through my mind: "Your blood boils, your eyeballs freeze, and your heart explodes..." Not a nice way to go--but she began the process herself. Psychotrauma can do that, of course, but what kind of mother would wish that on her own son?
Raydeus brings up a good point: who would Helo and Boomer trust with their daughter? Maia, her original foster-mother, is dead. Is there a ship or a portion of the Galactica that functions as a nursery/child-care? Major flaw in bringing those two parents on the Demetrius.
It's odd that a sewage refinery ship would be called Demetrius; many classical figures had that name, notably Demetrius I, King of Macedon (294 - 288 BC). Then again, his rule was more than a little smelly. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 9:42 AMWhy can't we just assume they have Hera with them? I don't think they would leave her behind. The entire fleet is on a military mission of sorts, so why not take her of on their military mission?
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 9:50 AMI can't imagine they have Hera with them. I'm imagining babies on away missions on Star Trek. The danger on the away mission is exponentially greater. Maybe the six in the brig is babysitting. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 10:31 AMYes, but the reimagined BSG was conceived as something of a deconstruction of the clichés of television space opera: Especially those set down by Star Trek. I can't think of anyone in the fleet that Helo and Athena would trust with Hera-- and even if they trusted Six, it would not be permitted. -
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Re: Season 4 ep3: Ties That Bind
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 10:40 AMcorrect me if I'm wrong, but weren't the first episodes already written and filmed before the strike?
Then they had a long long time to really sort things out and think about it.
I have fai
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